Adventtalk Deletions

[Cynthia]

I received the following notification by email:

A reply has been posted to a topic you are watching by anyman.

View the reply at: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index. ... icseen#new

Unsubscribe to this topic by clicking here: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index. ... pic=1764.0

The text of the reply is shown below:

Johann, for being a retired Pastor, what you said above was really not very representative.

Junebug, Pastor Johann has spent 50 years of ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist church in seven different countries; he has the perspective to make valid observations about what he observed going on at 3ABN while he was there.

It only takes a spark to get a fire going . . . and a second to switch sides . . . his fruits very well could have gone bad.

Regards,
The Advent Talk Team.

When I clicked on the link to view the thread his reply was already gone:

Johann, for being a retired Pastor, what you said above was really not very representative.

Junebug, Pastor Johann has spent 50 years of ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist church in seven different countries; he has the perspective to make valid observations about what he observed going on at 3ABN while he was there.

Edited to remove inappropriate content. You need to watch yourself, anyman.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2010,
10:05:03 PM by Snoopy »

[Cynthia]

Another post from my email:

A reply has been posted to a topic you are watching by 3ABN_Defender.

View the reply at: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index. ... icseen#new

Unsubscribe to this topic by clicking here: http://www.adventtalk.com/forums/index. ... pic=1764.0

The text of the reply is shown below:

Johann, for being a retired Pastor, what you said above was really not very representative.

Junebug, Pastor Johann has spent 50 years of ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist church in seven different countries; he has the perspective to make valid observations about what he observed going on at 3ABN while he was there.

He certainly has a right to give his point of view and opinion on what he personally saw or experienced. I have never had a problem with that. As to whether it is valid or not, well that depends on whether the facts support it, and looking at what he has to say in context. One must also consider what all (not just Johann) observed and experienced and what their testimony is about those same things.

My problem with Johann's testimony is that he really has very little to say about what he obsserved while at 3abn, as he was very rarely even there. Most of what he has to say came from Linda's telling him these things while he was far off in another country. he says he was in constant contact. So what? He didn't witness these things himself. He simply believed what she told him and acted on it, and repeated them. He also refused to believe Walt Thompson, Danny Shelton or anyone else as he interpreted all they had to say and do based on what Linda and even Darrell Mundall told him.

He has made a case and tells the story of being fired for no saying what Danny Shelton told him to, that may be true to a fault. Danny Shelton told him that it wasn't about he, Danny Shelton and it wasn't about Linda Shelton it was about the ministry of 3ABN. He didn't and still doesn't believe that.

He was supposed to represent the 3ABN ministry in Europe and help promote the ministry and God's work. Obviously he could not do so when he chose personality over principles. You cannot represent and promote a ministry who you are criticizing, finding fault with and accusing because you prefer one employee over another and act and think with bias and partiality.

That conflict is what caused him the loss of his job, it is what caused him to give bad advice, advice that a SDA minister, especially one with 50 yrs experience shouldn't give, such as not following the church manual on conflicts and resolutions and discipline in the church.

When he lost his objectivity he went down the wrong path in the opinion of many, myself included. He wasn't able to be objective or look at all subjectively then and I don't trust him to do that now.

This is my observation and I believe it to be just as valid and appropriate as Artiste trusts that Johann's is.

3D

Regards,
The Advent Talk Team.

Again when I clicked on the link in that notification:

Johann, for being a retired Pastor, what you said above was really not very representative.

Junebug, Pastor Johann has spent 50 years of ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist church in seven different countries; he has the perspective to make valid observations about what he observed going on at 3ABN while he was there.

He certainly has a right to give his point of view and opinion on what he personally saw or experienced. I have never had a problem with that. As to whether it is valid or not, well that depends on whether the facts support it, and looking at what he has to say in context. One must also consider what all (not just Johann) observed and experienced and what their testimony is about those same things.

My problem with Johann's testimony is that he really has very little to say about what he observed while at 3abn, as he was very rarely even there. Most of what he has to say came from Linda's telling him these things while he was far off in another country. he says he was in constant contact. So what? He didn't witness these things himself. He simply believed what she told him and acted on it, and repeated them. He also refused to believe Walt Thompson, Danny Shelton or anyone else as he interpreted all they had to say and do based on what Linda and even Darrell Mundall told him.

He has made a case and tells the story of being fired for not saying what Danny Shelton told him to, that may be true to a fault. Danny Shelton told him that it wasn't about he, Danny Shelton and it wasn't about Linda Shelton it was about the ministry of 3ABN and putting the ministry and what was right first. He didn't and still doesn't believe that.

******************************************

******************************************

This is my observation and I believe it to be just as valid and appropriate as Artiste trusts that Johann's is.

3D


MODERATOR HAT ON

It appears that some are not aware of the administrative position that Johann holds at the Advent Talk site. Please show appropriate respect to that position. Failure to do so may affect your further posting privileges at Advent Talk.

MODERATOR HAT OFF

« Last Edit: February 10, 2010,
03:50:35 PM by Artiste »

[Penny]

Thanks so much for posting the deleted entries here. Their redlined deletions (or whatever you call them) - are truly much ado about nothing.

[Donna]

MO is that the deletions are just proof that censorship reigns and free speech is thrown aside for things they just do not want to hear or don't like personally. It has nothing to do with the rules being broken.

Donna

[Penny]

Donna, you have hit the nail on the head. Earlier when I was reading over at the other site, I was thinking, thank goodness that that crew moderating over there is not enforcing our liberty of freedom of speech in this country.

First comment
They seem to have all sorts of tricks...these deletions, and now Johann throwing out "who is the father of Trinity?" in the middle of a thread that has nothing to do with who is anybody's father. I suppose he is expecting that it will send the conversation into a whole new direction and take the heat off from the logic and facts anyman, 3abndefender and ian are bringing to the discussion. We can just ignore Johann's question and let him bring it up in the appropriate thread if he's got some new light to shed on the matter.

------------------------------------------------------------
Second comment
I took a look at the link to the house that is for sale. I assume that it was posted correctly that it is Linda's house. First, it is from the outside a beautiful home. I wish her well trying to sell it in this economy. Though I am not personally familiar with the housing market in Springfield, I would imagine that like the rest of the country it is taking a while for houses to sell, unless they are priced right (meaning low). Sounds to me from what I read that the assumption is she is selling b/c she is running out of money. Is that the case, or is it possible that she is selling because her life is moving in a direction away from Springfield?

--------------------------------------------------------------
Third comment
Over the years I have at various times watched Hope TV, LLU Broadcasting and listened to VOP radio...and they all are getting the good news of the gospel to the world. Each network will reach a different audience, though there is no doubt some over lap. Instead of pitting one against the other, Hope vs 3ABN etc, the goal for each is the same --- reaching the world for Jesus Christ. And to that end if another dozen channels come into existence, I thank God for that and hope and pray that all will prosper to His name's honor and glory.

(PS, if my musings are in the wrong thread, I will understand if you move this post).

[Donna]

Just a comment on your second comment. After going to the link where LS house is for sale it sure cleared up the issue as to whether she had a pool. Johann said he had gone out and had not seen one. The large deck and pool area is clearly seen.

Donna

[Penny]

http://tax.co.sangamon.il.us/SangamonCo ... UnNj7mFPMN

[Donna]

Penny, I'm sorry but the link you gave doesn't work. At least it didn't for me.

Donna

[Pat Williams]

The Link didn't work for me either. Probably because it was a result of a search on the site. Penny, can you tell us what information you entered in and give us the link to the page where you did so, so that we can see the results?

As far as the "Inappropriate content removed" deletions and censoring topic goes. It continues.


The latest line they removed was:

""Ask Johann if you don't believe me. No one has ever chastised him or accused him for remarrying so soon after his wife died, AND SHOULDN''T."

The note under the post says:

"Edited by Artiste to remove inappropriate content."

(the entire unedited post and discussion is quoted below)


I can't figure out why Johann is regarded as a sacred cow, no man is infallible or above reproach or questions, yet they seem to regard him as such. I see their defensiveness, even when none is really even necessary as evidence of very warped priorities and thinking. I am in agreement with the comments above, much is silly, much ado about nothing and just proves they are able to justify censorship, while proclaiming their championship of free speech. It really reminds me of Jesus rebuking the Pharisees about the whitened sepulchers.

3ABN_Defender
Re: Motion re: MidCountry Bank records
« Reply #117 on: February 15, 2010, 09:22:48 AM »

from: amazinggrace on February 13, 2010, 08:05:04 PM
3ABN_Defender,

I've followed the Linda/Danny saga on BSDA, etc. for years, and it is still unclear just what the evidence is that Linda had sexual relations with the Dr., giving Danny Biblical grounds for divorcing Linda and marrying Brandy.

Exactly what is this evidence that convinced the 3ABN board that Danny was Biblically justified in divorcing Linda and marrying Brandy?

Would it be enough proof that would hold up in court if Danny divorced Linda on the grounds of adultery?

Amazinggrace,

The following is my understanding. Even though, Linda's friends and supporters have been claiming on her behalf that she was fired for adultery/spiritual adultery.(The claim that she was fired for adultery fuels their claim that she was wrongfully terminated, as she claims she has never committed adultery) 3ABN on the other hand has always maintained they did not fire her for adultery or remove her from her position on the board and as vice President for adultery- spiritual or otherwise.

They have never responded to the demands that the evidence all be made public by themselves because IMHO it is a non issue with them where she is concerned.

In the letter of explanation after Danny's remarriage in March of 2006 almost 2 years later, the Chairman of the 3abn board, Dr Thompson, wrote that the board did carefully go through all the evidence when the issue of Danny's remarriage came up. They needed to determine as the ministry board whether there was a problem with him doing so. If there had been it would have affected his role and position at 3ABN, so the evidence was needed by them as far as Danny was concerned. They were satisfied at that time that Danny had a biblical right to remarry. That was their job, and their business and not public information. Without seeing it themselves others IMHO have no right to criticize or accuse them.

The issue of infidelity and the divorce in June of 2004 is a private one, and is actually one between Linda and Danny. I do know that her Lawyer early on sent a letter on her behalf to Danny threatening a lawsuit if anything was said or revealed. I know there is the letter allegedly from Linda demanding that the evidence be revealed, but there is some question of which parts of that letter was written by her and which by another as was posted on BSDA the first time it was published. She apparently hadn't authorized it and it wasn't in it's final form. In addition there have been more than several occasions where she could have had all revealed and didn't for various reasons. One being at her own Church when she decided to drop her membership rather than attend and deal with a possible censure and have it all presented,another the attempted ASI resolution where they agreed to consider the issue of the divorce and remarriage and she said nothing, while her representatives tried to bring up many other issues. Even within the last year one of her supporters wanted to see all the evidence and Danny asked them to go back to Linda and get her authorization and promise not to hold him liable before handing it over, and Linda would not agree and has not given that.

That's all I can really tell you.

What I am saying is I don't know if you or anyone outside of those who's business it was to know and look at it will ever see the so called evidence. I am not convinced Linda even wants anyone to, and even if she did, I am not convinced it is our business.

3D

amazinggrace
Re: Motion re: MidCountry Bank records
« Reply #121 on: February 15, 2010, 07:48:11 PM »

3ABN_Defender,

The circumstances of Danny and Linda's divorce would be nobody's business if they were private people, but they are not. Both are in Christian ministry. Danny is a public figure who is supported by thousands of donors who give their money to spread the gospel, not to support an adulterer. Donors have every right to know what kind of people are benefiting from their donations.

Either Linda was an adulterer, which freed Danny to marry, or she was not, which makes Danny and Brandy adulterers. The idea that it's nobody's business whether or not Danny is an adulterer is astounding.

Anyone in Christian ministry needs to be above reproach, not having even the appearance of evil. The fact is that Danny, not Linda, got married soon after the quickie divorce was final - and to a twice-divorced, newly baptized woman younger than his daughter. And now, even she has left him. This just doesn't pass the smell test.

3ABN_Defender
Re: Motion re: MidCountry Bank records
« Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 04:01:35 PM »

Amazinggrace,


I don't care about your smell test, as far as I am concerned Brandy and Danny getting married almost two years after Linda and Danny's divorce is not evidence of sin or wrongdoing, nor does it stink except in some noses attached to dirty minds. Ask Johann if you don't believe me. No one has ever chastised him or accused him for remarrying so soon after his wife died, AND SHOULDN''T.


Maybe you could go back and read what I wrote again. I certainly didn't say it was nobody's business.

Clearly the issue of Linda's alleged adultery and her and Danny's divorce was their Church's business, but Churches don't reveal that stuff publicly and shouldn't. The bible explains how to handle problems and so does the spirit of prophecy, and there are different levels in the organization to appeal to.

Clearly the 3abn board considered the issue of Danny's divorce and remarriage their business when that came up and responsibly handled it as they should.

But the evidence they looked at, the nitty gritty details, are not the public's business, and they are not your business. That's what I meant.

amazinggrace;
Re: Motion re: MidCountry Bank records
« Reply #128 on: Yesterday at 06:48:52 PM »

I should think that the term "dirty mind" is more applicable to those who believe that Linda committed adultery with a man she barely knew and whom she had visited only a few days. That whole scenario is preposterous.

By the way, I have not had "inappropriate" comments removed from my posts, whereas you.......

As you can see the innapropriate coment removed edit note is taken just the way they apparently intend that it should be.

[Pat Williams]

Another example in that same thread from my posts:

Re: Motion re: MidCountry Bank records
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2010, 07:53:44 AM »

Who told you this? Who are you, and what did you experience? There are a number of untruths in what you have stated here.

Kindly be specific, don't just generically call me a liar please, identify each thing you are claiming is a lie, and I will provide the documents and quotes to support what I said. Sound fair, Johann?

I have hardly any information from Linda Shelton nor Darrell Mundall in comparison with information gained from Walt Thompson and Danny Shelton himself.

You keep saying that but the problem is that in all the communications which have been published between you and them, you are seeking them out, and disagreeing with and attacking them based on information and stories you heard from Linda, and not based on what you yourself saw or witnessed. Please name one piece of information which you gained, from Walt Thompson or Danny Shelton or judgment you formed against them which is independent of her influence and your bias and preconceived notions based on what she told you.

Were you in Norway when Linda was there? What did you experience during her stay there? False rumors of what happened there started all of this. And then you dare claiming that I did not experience anything myself. Your claims make you untrustworthy.

You came for a short visit and then returned home within hours. You, yourself, only know what you were told, as you weren't there, Johann. You are not in a position to be a witness as to what is or is not true during her first stay there.

As to her later visits, you cannot say either, in fact you on numerous occasions on BSDA and elsewhere testified she never returned until you wife, Irmgard's funeral, so it sounds like you had no personal knowledge of what did or did not happen when she visited the Dr again.

When I later on different occasions confronted a couple of members of the board with what I had experienced I was told that what really happened did not matter. Their only concern was that, according to their opinion, 3ABN could not go on without Danny Shelton, and therefore it made no difference who was telling the truth. I also have an e-mail from Danny himself where he claims that the truth is only what he thinks will benefit himself - and thereby 3ABN.

You almost never identify anyone, or even quote them, and this testimony of yours about the board members doesn't match what I know of them and of the circumstances. I am not calling you a liar here, but I am saying at best that is how you viewed it, and how you remember it, but I don't believe that is what they actually said or meant.

As Far as your claim about Danny's email "he claims that the truth is only what he thinks will benefit himself - and thereby 3ABN." If you have the letter , produce it, unedited, and prove he said that, for I don't believe that either.

3D

He has made a case and tells the story of being fired for not saying what Danny Shelton told him to, that may be true to a fault. Danny Shelton told him that it wasn't about he, Danny Shelton and it wasn't about Linda Shelton it was about the ministry of 3ABN and putting the ministry and what was right first. He didn't and still doesn't believe that.

Who is "he" here? Danny Shelton?

No. I am sorry "he" is you, Johann. They kept telling you it was about 3ABN and God's ministry, and doing the right thing but you kept making it all about Linda, and how Danny was wrong and how Linda had been wronged, so had to believe they were lying and it was really all about Danny as far as they were concerned, in order to keep justifying yourself and your view.

{Quote}
This is my observation and I believe it to be just as valid and appropriate as Artiste trusts that Johann's is.

3D

And what is your observation?

**********************************

Edited to remove inappropriate content.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2010, 10:03:18 AM by Snoopy »

What Snoopy deemed inappropriate and removed and replaced with the asterisk above was me posting:

Is that fair? You know Artiste deleted it, so I cannot repost it here, but as you ask I will go repost my unedited post on the other forum, and possibly this one too...

3D

Johann hasn't answered this post above btw, unless you can count the one referred to in Penny's 1st comment above as a reply:

They seem to have all sorts of tricks...these deletions, and now Johann throwing out "who is the father of Trinity?" in the middle of a thread that has nothing to do with who is anybody's father. I suppose he is expecting that it will send the conversation into a whole new direction and take the heat off from the logic and facts anyman, 3abndefender and ian are bringing to the discussion. We can just ignore Johann's question and let him bring it up in the appropriate thread if he's got some new light to shed on the matter.

3D