Acting on allegations

[odie1962]

Odie, yes they do have an enormous responsibility to those who donate and support them, but they can not force those who do not do so to believe them...

Part of the problem with the info you got maybe due to some confusion. It wasn't an audit.

Internal Revenue Manual
irs.gov
Part 9. Criminal Investigation
Chapter 5. Investigate Process
Section 14. Closing Procedures
9.5.14.13

Notification to Subjects When an Investigation is Discontinued
...

If the SAC decides not to notify the subject, a memorandum setting forth the reasons will be prepared. Letters will not normally be sent in the grand jury investigation, nor investigations involving multiple filers or individuals related to other prosecution investigations.

In investigations declined by DOJ, Tax Division, letters of notification will not be sent by the IRS.

See? No letter.

For others who may be confused by conflicting claims by Fran, Pickle, Joy and others that this is all still going on. Think! The IRS does not return or destroy copies of records if they still need them. This has all been testified to under oath in court by 3abn's attorneys, and lawyers don't like to stand up in court and perjure themselves about the IRS... would you?

So, here again is the letter from 3abn's attorneys informing 3abn of the closure of the IRS investigation: http://www.3atalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11
for those who haven't read it.

FYI This is not going to keep being rehashed here unless someone has new facts or evidence to add, or a new or unique question.

..ian

I did ask in terms of a Total Compliance Audit,and or criminal investugation.


At this point it is really a dead horse except for the train of thought by some that these issues in general should not be looked at.
As to the many allegations about DS personally,I haven't a clue. I do know how unlikely so many would lie and there is the rub. So far the "so many" are Bob and Gailon and all the MP that have shown up. It is past to late if there is victim/victims out there that have felt Bob and Gailon were there to help them.
If there is a legitimate allegation out there the victim will be raped and molested again and again by both sides. This is the main anger I have at Bob and Gailon. There only concern is to sling as much as they can, not caring who gets hurt or how they sling it.
I personally would not have a problem stringing them up by their thumbs in the town square. They are beyond contemptible.
But there are some things that strike a chord in this for me. I do not trust Bob and Gailon to the end of my very short driveway. I do not have faith in DS as the choir boy here.
I also know what happens when those that are impacted by any of this behaviour are made to feel guilty when speaking out unless their lives have been perfect

[Cynthia]

Bob and Gailon have done enormous damage in the event their is a victim the way they have conducted this

True, And if there is not, and there is not proof there are any victims , then Danny and Tommy both will have to deal with people like you saying this kind of thing about them and believing it for the rest of their lives and Bob and Gailon will also have done enormous damage and destroyed their lives, reputation and livelyhood.

How sad is that? I wonder if you can imagine your Son innocent but accused of molesting his children, and others by his ex-wife and that Pastor, and you and he weren't even told who the alleged victims where or what the specific allegations were, and had gone through all you did to clear his name, instead of what did happen, if you would see things a bit differently here?

Look at all you have said about these men in these posts and substitute your son's name in his place and imagine how you would feel reading all this about him by someone who didn't even know him, and who had only heard what those who were falsely accusing him and trying to destroy him said and published?

sorry, but this really bothers me, we really need to be able to investigate things and be willing to give both sides the benefit of the doubt until all the facts and evidence is in.

..ian

[odie1962]

Ian,

Let me be clear. I have no idea if DS has ever been guilty of something like this or not. What makes me edgy is when some raise the bar for any with questions to such a level that unless you yourself are perfect you have no right to question.
Listened to that for years. By the standard's laid down for me,I did not have the qualifications to object/report/demand something be done when I saw my sons family being destroyed. I had failed to have a perfect marriage. I never knew until I was forced in that situation to know how many people are intimidated with those words and others to be silent. Many remain silent


DS seems to have taken on mytical proportions by both sides. One side knows beyond a doubt he is guilty of nothing and should not be suspect by less than perfect people. The other side has him the earthly form of the devil himself and any and all should be said.

3ABN is going to be tainted in the eyes of many for some time because of Bob and Gailon. The backing out of the lawsuit only cemented that fact for many. I don't believe the reasons given but no I can't prove it. I have said for a long time now that if I had something to hide I would not want to be in the sights of either one of them. I do think had the lawsuit continued there would have been embarrassment at the very least.
Bob and Gailon don't care a fig about right/ wrong/ethical,they care only about bringing 3ABN down any way they have to do it. But I suspect they do have something juicy. Not a real big conspiracy buff but believe the recent deluge of allegations is quite deliberate. I do think they would like to force DS ,3ABN to come at them again.
They have not one thing to lose. Bob doesn't work and doesn't look like he has any inclination that way. As long as there is a sin out there he is happy to keep sin sniffing. Not sure what Gailon is doing after his embezzelment problem. They are not wore down by the demands of a lawsuit, they are energized and filled with excitement.

[Stan]

3ABN is going to be tainted in the eyes of many for some time because of Bob and Gailon.

AND if they feel this is unjust, and if donors ceased to donate, and claim that is the reason....... what should they do?

[odie1962]

True, And if there is not, and there is not proof there are any victims , then Danny and Tommy both will have to deal with people like you saying this kind of thing about them and believing it for the rest of their lives and Bob and Gailon will also have done enormous damage and destroyed their lives, reputation and livelyhood.


Tommy I have little sympathy for. That is based on the letter he wrote. Unless there is an indication TS didn't. DS will have to deal with this mess and how it was handled,whoever was in the wrong. I do not know,have no clue as to the new allegatons about DS. Not a clue. What I said and will reaffirm,Bob and Gailon have so tainted this,were a alleged victim to come forward independent of Bob and Gailon or not, it wouldn't matter. She would be abused all over again. And that, ask any victim of sexual abuse and you will find it is not the initial abuse but what followed is what made them bitter and angry




How sad is that? I wonder if you can imagine your Son innocent but accused of molesting his children, and others by his ex-wife and that Pastor, and you and he weren't even told who the alleged victims where or what the specific allegations were, and had gone through all you did to clear his name, instead of what did happen, if you would see things a bit differently here?


I can more than imagine having my son accused of all sorts of things,none pleasent or good. Probably the least damaging to the heart of a mother was to learn he was being accused of " throwing his small daughter against the stone fireplace" . His abusive behaviour a result of his father, my husband. Sometime privately I will share some with you.

If there are accusations out there, there should be names as well if you are going to make it public. It is very difficult to get others to believe even in the best and calmest of circumstances. That is what concerns me the most. People like Bob and Gailon can set any small gains made in this area back 50 years.


Look at all you have said about these men in these posts and substitute your son's name in his place and imagine how you would feel reading all this about him by someone who didn't even know him, and who had only heard what those who were falsely accusing him and trying to destroy him said and published?



I don't know DS,probably never meet the man. Some things I believe and others I don't. But the can of worms is not going to closed. I agree that Bob and Gailon want nothing more than to destroy DS/3ABN. Not sure why.
I have not accused him of any of these new allegations.
The way this has all been handled I don't think most will ever feel they know. The games this two have played with something that is potentially that damaging to both victim and accused warrents them a special place and that is not on the right hand of God as they think. But it does not mean a blanket endorsement of all behaviour unless the person objecting proves himself.herself worthy. That was my initial raeson for saying anything

sorry, but this really bothers me, we really need to be able to investigate things and be willing to give both sides the benefit of the doubt until all the facts and evidence is in.


Ian There can be no investigation into much of this with what has been done. As much as I believe that the vast majority of abuse victims are telling the truth, I would have many reservations about any Bob and Gailon produce now.That is the worst of this. Did DS do anything of this nature?? I don't know. Many of the other issues involved,don't know. But I am certain of one thing with the sexual abuse allegations is that there are going to be those that just knew he would do something like this and then those that know for a fact he never would.. That is the truly sick part of this, even stretching credibility and saying their motives were righteous ones.

[odie1962]

3ABN is going to be tainted in the eyes of many for some time because of Bob and Gailon.

AND if they feel this is unjust, and if donors ceased to donate, and claim that is the reason....... what should they do?

Short of launching a new lawsuit nothing much but ride it out. The dropping of the lawsuit only made Bob and Gailon bolder. I think they will continue and get worse.
When you engage in a lawsuit both sides get bloody. Just make sure you can stand the sight of your own blood. If that makes you a little nervous don't engage the fight

[Cynthia]

...

Ian There can be no investigation into much of this with what has been done. As much as I believe that the vast majority of abuse victims are telling the truth, I would have many reservations about any Bob and Gailon produce now.That is the worst of this. Did DS do anything of this nature?? I don't know. Many of the other issues involved,don't know. But I am certain of one thing with the sexual abuse allegations is that there are going to be those that just knew he would do something like this and then those that know for a fact he never would.. That is the truly sick part of this, even stretching credibility and saying their motives were righteous ones.

I will look forward to that talk,

And I can understand what you are saying here. Sometimes, actually often, I think that the biggest evidence to support the fact that Pickle/Joy and co have gone about this all wrong is that in claiming they want to help a few they have harmed so very many. Mostly those they claimed they wanted to help, (including 3abn, and those they claim were victims of 3abn) and even some who started out in step with them. It's also my opinion that they and Johann have done more to harm Linda Shelton's reputation then any other.

But anyway I am tired.. ( it's exhausting trying to answer someone as honest and blunt as myself. lol) but it's Sabbath, so that's very good. smile.

((hugs))

[Cynthia]

Odie, yes they do have an enormous responsibility to those who donate and support them, but they can not force those who do not do so to believe them...

Part of the problem with the info you got maybe due to some confusion. It wasn't an audit.

I did ask in terms of a Total Compliance Audit,and or criminal investugation.

I forgot to address this. Well then maybe they answered you with the reasonable assumption that the IRS would find something that would need to be corrected or fixed? (3abn has inside and outside auditors - the ones Pickle and Joy's subpoena were to- so according to 3abn they fix any errors and correct things which may be found by their auditors as they go) or that there would be problems with something the IRS investigators found? In that case of course there would have to be a letter to inform 3abn of what needed to be done. But, if not, the IRS just gives the paperwork back if that is desired, moves on, and no letter is sent as I quoted from the manual.

(This is of course why Fran hasn't heard from the IRS as she keeps posting. She reported what she thought wrong with 3abn's financial records etc, trying to get the reward money, but would only hear from them if they found something --according to that same IRS manual.)

Kinda sad really. It reminds me of one time when I was sitting at the border to Canada. There was a car sitting off to the side up on blocks which was totally stripped down to nothing and dismantled. My brother told me, they do that if they have reason to believe there is drugs or contraband etc being smuggled in or out of the USA. I asked, " and what if they find nothing?" and he answered " well then the owners get their vehicle back in pieces and can file it as a total loss, or they get the fun and expense of putting it all back together again..."

Blessings to you and yours,
..ian

[odie1962]

And I can understand what you are saying here. Sometimes, actually often, I think that the biggest evidence to support the fact that Pickle/Joy and co have gone about this all wrong is that in claiming they want to help a few they have harmed so very many. Mostly those they claimed they wanted to help, (including 3abn, and those they claim were victims of 3abn) and even some who started out in step with them. It's also my opinion that they and Johann have done more to harm Linda Shelton's reputation then any other.

But anyway I am tired.. ( it's exhausting trying to answer someone as honest and blunt as myself. lol) but it's Sabbath, so that's very good. smile.

((hugs))

Sometimes blunt does not come across as it is meant. If there is one single issue that makes most abuse survivors livid is games with this or false accusations. Bob and Gailon are playing a very destructive game along with those that follow them.

You used my son as an example and it does point out what I am trying to say. Had the kind of garbage Bob and Gailon provide as proof gone before my complaint to the MN conference ,he and I would have been suspect and finished before even getting out of the gate. With the exception of one attorney,he almost was.

Those making serious accusations are suspect enough without that kind of baggage. The bar is raised so high,not as to facts,but "if you are perfect you can lodge a complaint". That and similar words have been used for decades to silence anyone coming forward. It has been used very effectively. It is somewhat better,but most of that is the enormous financial cost to the denomination and the sharing on the internet,it can no longer be hidden,it is not conscience or ethics.

As for TS.... The first thing I recall reading on TS was the letter he wrote. I don't think there is any denying that sexual misconduct of a deviant type took place. Duane Clem has been abused and re-abused over again by Bob and Gailon. It does not matter what age Duane was. It wouldn't even matter if it was his suggestion. You have a pastor that violated his oath to God. He can be forgiven, but should never be in the position of trust and leadership again. That is what the SDA denomination claims to follow. Most acts of this type are not brought forward the first time,it is generally a pattern that is followed.

I don't think there is any denying this......."It's also my opinion that they and Johann have done more to harm Linda Shelton's reputation then any other".

Again the greater burden lies with Johann. Not that Bob and gailon don't know exactly what they are doing, but the bar is higher for a pastor to be truthful and fair,


Stan, As for what kind of an employer would act on allegations of this type, look no further than your own employer. James Cress makes such statements.